Click on check-box cycles three states
Rhubarb
A tap or click on a check box currently toggles between two states:
- [] open
-click- -[x] done
-click- - [] open
-click- …Why not cycle through
three
states? - [] open
-click- -[x] done
-click- - [-] canceled
-click- - [] open
-click- …This should work on iOS and macOS. Canceling a task would be much simpler.
Enable this behavior throughout the app, which means in the editor, Review, Search, Backlinks.
Related: Reddit
Rhubarb
New idea: Make this task state optional. When there is no third task state, there is no need to toggle this task state. https://noteplan.canny.io/task-management/p/user-preference-disable-some-task-states
Rhubarb
Anton Sklyar
I would rather use long tap for cancelling. Got quite used to it while using Things, and I think I’ve found the same in some other to-do apps (although most of to-do apps avoid canceled state at all, can’t understand why).
But as for accessibility, I can say that NotePlan has a bigger problem with the
size
of the circle than with double or triple clicks. The size (or tap/click zone around the circle) should definitely be bigger because even I (with all my experience in using various devices and screen sizes) sometimes find it hard to tap / click on that circle.Anton Sklyar
And yes, second click / tap for canceling could lead to accidentally cancelling the task instead of completing it.
Add to this the fact that you actually have
four
states (re-scheduling is the fourth), and cycling through 3 states becomes looking counterintuitive.Rhubarb
Anton Sklyar: I think our discussion here illustrates nicely, why other to-do apps avoid canceled states. Interaction with binary checkboxes is much easier to design and understand.
The negative side-effects of additional states outweigh the benefits by far. For better compatibility with other Markdown apps, I limit myself to two task states in Noteplan: Open and Done. I don't miss the other two.
Rhubarb
I'm afraid that this feature request might be the start of a larger conversation about task states and
compatibility with Markdown
. AFAIK the original design of Noteplan 1 broke the compatibility with standard Markdown by interpreting a simple asterisk
*
as a task. In standard Markdown it is a list marker for unordered lists (HTML: <ul>
+ <li>
).A later version of Noteplan broke the compatibility with GitHub Flavored Markdown by adding additional states like "canceled" or "scheduled". In GFM task list items have only the two states
- [ ]
and - [x]
. And they are rendered by default as two-state checkboxes (HTML: <input type="checkbox">
).One could argue that we are dealing with a new flavor of Markdown here, that might be called "Noteplan Flavored Markdown" (NPFM). I'd like to emphasize, that the feature request here is about designing a non-textual user interaction with a block element ("multi-state task") that exists
only
in NPFM. It's something that is unique to Noteplan, that differentiates Noteplan from other Markdown-based tools.
Eduard Metzger
Given the discoverability bonus this has, I started to like this approach. Not a blocker, but just read this in Apples UI guide:
>” Prefer simplified gestures for interaction. Complex gestures such as multifinger gestures, long presses, or
repeated button presses
can be challenging for many people. Using the simplest gestures possible improves the experience for everyone who interacts with your app.”😬
Mike Erickson
Eduard Metzger: I agree with you, tri state checkboxes should only be used when a subgroup of checkboxes have n-1 items selected, which would make parent group a minus.
Single item checkboxes should be considered Boolean
Jonathan Clark
Eduard Metzger: ha, Apple routinely ignore this in core parts of iOS!
Jonathan Clark
Mike Erickson: I’d agree in general about checkboxes. However, in NP there are 3 states, and the rendering of them already distinguishes them from simple checkboxes as seen in some Markdown editors. IIRC OmniFocus has a richer ‘checkbox’ with more possible states.
Eduard Metzger
Jonathan Clark: Can you point me to some example? I would love to see it in other apps / UI.
Rhubarb
Jonathan Clark: actually there are
five
states: four
of them are official with individual icons, the fifth
is a common workaround. Noteplan already renders Markdown with a
four-state checkbox
. The question here is: How many of these four states should be accessible with a simple single click/tap?
Rhubarb
Eduard Metzger: "repeated button presses" refers to gestures like double-click or triple-click, where some people have difficulties to get the timing right.
I propose a
single
click/tap to change from one state to the next, because it is the simplest gesture possible. ;-)It's easier than opening a dialog and choosing an item from a complex sheet. It's easier than right-click and choosing from a context menu.
Rhubarb
Eduard Metzger
Rhubarb: Does Apple document somewhere what they mean by "repeated button presses"? Where did you read about double/triple click?
Rhubarb
Eduard Metzger: I deduce it from the context. You quoted Apple's accessibility guidelines. So we're looking at accessibility, where motoric ability is a well-known issue.
"Double taps" are very rare in Apple's Gestures for iOS and Gestures for macOS.
Again, I'm proposing the simplest interaction there is for a state change: a
single
click/tap on the icon that represents the current state.t
tf
Eduard Metzger: Not sure if this is what you mean, but the app Sorted3 on iOS lets you long press for canceling a task. (It’s one of the features I liked when I tried it for a while.)
Rhubarb
tf: Could you point to the manual, where this behavior is described in more detail? If I understand https://support.sortedapp.com/articles/37020-adding-and-deleting-tasks-and-events and https://support.sortedapp.com/categories/9224-enhancing-tasks-and-events correctly, Sorted3 doesn't have an equivalent to Noteplan's task state Cancelled.
t
tf
Rhubarb: You're right — I can't find it in the documentation. However, on the Mac app, if I click and hold on a checkbox, it changes to a checkbox box with an x in it (as opposed to empty or checked). I just tried to upload a quick screen recording, but I don't think the system will let me. Happy to send somewhere if it'll help.
Rhubarb
tf: Thanks for the hint! I was curious and installed the app on my iPad. It ships with a tutorial that describes the interaction you mentioned. (See screenshot.)
Sorted3 seems to take an opposite approach to notes and tasks than Noteplan: in Noteplan notes contain tasks, in Sorted3 tasks can contain notes. Interesting!
t
tf
Rhubarb: TaskPaper can Faldo have notes within tasks. It’s a really handy feature — I do the same thing in NotePlan often by putting a billeted point or two indented after a task. It works until I rearrange things.
Sorted3 is a nice app: clever, beautiful and creative. In the end though, I think it’s too clicky for me — I want to do more with my keyboard — and I really prefer my data in plain text, not wrapped up in a database.
Rhubarb
tf: I can relate to "too clicky". :-) That's an important reason why I gave up Things, Apple Reminders, Apple Notes, MS OneNote and many others.
Another reason is that I find lists of tasks not a useful level of abstraction. I think in projects, that
also
include actionable tasks. I love Noteplan because its basic building blocks are notes. These notes allow me to put tasks in a meaningful context. My notes resemble more apps like Dropbox Paper than task lists like Sorted3, Things or TaskPaper.Interestingly the checkboxes you mentioned exist
inside
notes that are attached to a task. It makes sense to compare them with Noteplan's checkboxes that also exist inside notes!Anton Sklyar
Rhubarb: Actually I don’t know what you mean when you call Things app “clicky”, it has the most polished and complete keyboard navigation I’ve ever met in a to-do app. You can navigate everywhere and do anything with the task using your keyboard.
But “task list” concept is too limited for me either. I desperately miss markdown support in task and project notes in Things, as well as the ability to create just
notes
in the project, not only tasks.P.S.: And yeah, I’ve tried Sorted too. It has good intention to become “Things 4” in a sense, by implementing the features that are missing in Things. But if you ever try Things, any other app would just feel “not so good”, and Sorted is like that too, hard to use on a daily basis.
And again, they miss the whole “notes” concept, everything is a task out there.
TickTick and Todoist “kinda” support notes, but they just
feel
like something weird and “3rd party” out there...Rhubarb
Anton Sklyar: I love Things. It's a perfect example for an app that managed to avoid feature creep. It's still an excellent task list manager. I find it "clicky" because for me the design works best with taps/clicks. Keyboard shortcuts on a Mac never felt right with Things. But Things feels great on an iPhone.
I'm discovering Sorted3 for me, because it seems to have solved the problem of Scheduling.
Notes stopped being a problem for me, when I discovered Markdown. After some experiments I settled on iA Writer as the one tool, that just works. And I'm relying increasingly on Obsidian for linked notes, with all the openness and flexibility of plain text files.
Noteplan looked like a promising attempt to bridge scheduling and Markdown. All the necessary elements were there. But it seems to have taken the wrong turn. It's growing into a behemoth with countless contradictions and loose ends, instead of focussing on one thing and doing it well, like Sorted or Things.
Anton Sklyar
Rhubarb: As for Sorted3, it is
too bound
to scheduling actually, and that was the main weak point of the app for me, because things almost never take the amount of time I predicted, and so, robust scheduling is pointless for my workflow. For you the situation may differ, of course. But mind that Sorted3 is all
about scheduling, nothing else.As for NotePlan, sorry to hear that you are disappointed with its focus. As for me, NotePlan could never be about “doing just one thing”, of course (because it tries to combine calendar, tasks and notes in its core, and that’s 3 things), so it’s more of an attempt of a “swiss army knife”, and it has its strong and weak points:
- events and reminders management is of course very basic and does not compete with Fantastical or even Apple Calendar, I actually do not use them in NotePlan (and it even irritates me that on ios swipe is event creation instead of a refresh)
- notes organization management is powerful but of course there are some usability issues and it’s not as pleasure to use as Bear or Ulysses, but I hope for this to improve at some point
- daily notes and tasks and cross-references / backlinks is the strongest point of NotePlan and its unique core feature that you cannot find in any other app, I think
Eduard Metzger
tf: Interesting, that's also a viable approach! A bit more hidden though. You first need to get the idea to long-press.
t
tf
Eduard Metzger: Yes, that’s a drawback. A more complex option would be a preference to allow an indefinite number of states (eg, set with a list of characters that would go between the brackets, in order: x - v + etc.), and then each successive tap/click cycles through; set a default of three so people know it’s a possibility, maybe.